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Author Topic: SymbOS (Read 146726 times)

Offline Zozosoft

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #315 on: 2014.November.14. 14:59:51 »
I saw there is a IDE tab in the enterprise emulator. Is this based on the same principals ?
It is my older development, started at about 20 years ago :-)
Today's it is obsolete, because the SD interface. But if Prodatron have a energy for do it, possible to add driver for SymbOS :-)


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I never heard about the Enterprise system until Prodatron told me about it.
I see flag of Netherlands at your name. This is interesting because I think many Enterprise users at your country, we have many issues of Dutch Enterprise magazines. Look at the collection.


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I don't own a Enterprise. (The prices seems sky high on Ebay for me)
If you really want one, then I have some spares...

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To bad they didn't build-in a floppy drive during that time.
The next model planed with built in, but it is never released :cry:

Online Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #316 on: 2014.November.14. 15:03:30 »
Quote
Is this based on the same principals ?

IDE interface for the EP is a piece of hardware designed by Zozosoft.

Before the cartridge SD controller that IDE controller was the only solution to use larger and faster storage devices than floppies.

Because of almost everything can have an IDE interface you can use many type of devices with the EP through that IDE interface: HDDs, IDE to SD, IDE to CF or what you want.

From the software perspective it has a "driver" for the EXDOS (wich is an extension for EXOS), and every software use that what could use the floppies.

The cartridge SD card is a different thing from the hardware perspective, it connects to the cartridge port, and is not mixing IDE interface to the things ... but it has a software driver just like IDE interface has, and every software uses that what could use floppies under EXOS/EXDOS ...

The ep128emu2 can emulate floppies and the IDE controller ... the cartridge SD has no emulation till now ...

SymbOS would have to support these things, too. Floppies are supported now through the floppy controller chip interface, and it has to support the IDE interface and the cartridge SD, too ... I think ...


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(The prices seems sky high on Ebay for me)

We are suprised of that, too. In the "hungarian e-bay" (called vatera.hu) you can buy enterprises about 50-200 dollars. The prices are such high in the last or last two years, only ... In theory, they produced 80000 instances of the EP ... but we do not know where they are ... :(
« Last Edit: 2014.November.14. 15:11:27 by Z80System »
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Offline BruceTanner

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #317 on: 2014.November.14. 15:09:10 »
explorer.exe is currently in development so you have to wait. But Tetris is already done.

I like your priorities! :mrgreen:

Offline lgb

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #318 on: 2014.November.14. 15:18:28 »
It is my older development, started at about 20 years ago :-)
Today's it is obsolete, because the SD interface. But if Prodatron have a energy for do it, possible to add driver for SymbOS :-)

However it may turn into a question about wasting memory. What I mean here is the needed memory space for the driver, if the OS is not "load driver from disk" kind. As far as I can see, MSX works with loading SymbOS drivers, but CPC is not. While I tried to disassembly CPC SymbOS, I seen that there are many hw drivers built-in somehow. Which can be a factor if you have the base 128K RAM only. If every drivers are built-in there can be a problem later. But the another side of the problem: having loadable drivers also causing using a bit more memory. Hmmm. The question here is soon (especially for the next SymbOS version which can be even larger maybe) that how realistic to run SymbOS with 128K RAM only. It's not too much to actually work with SymbOS so we can say it will be not enough to even boot SymbOS. But there is some little sound within me saying: "ok, not enough but nice feeling to know it will work _somehow_ even on the good-old base system with only hardware elements produced by the original manufacturer of the machine when it was sold/bought ...". It's even true for the SD driver, as not everybody have it. I am not sure what the strategy of SymbOS for the future versions on different platforms: will 128K enough for every future versions as well, what will be about the "monolithic" and "loadable driver" versions in MSX/PCW/CPC/EP128 .... will they be always different (as like now afaik, that msx uses loadable drivers but not the cpc, I think). etc, etc.

Offline Trebmint

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #319 on: 2014.November.14. 16:11:25 »
However it may turn into a question about wasting memory. What I mean here is the needed memory space for the driver, if the OS is not "load driver from disk" kind. As far as I can see, MSX works with loading SymbOS drivers, but CPC is not. While I tried to disassembly CPC SymbOS, I seen that there are many hw drivers built-in somehow. Which can be a factor if you have the base 128K RAM only. If every drivers are built-in there can be a problem later. But the another side of the problem: having loadable drivers also causing using a bit more memory. Hmmm. The question here is soon (especially for the next SymbOS version which can be even larger maybe) that how realistic to run SymbOS with 128K RAM only. It's not too much to actually work with SymbOS so we can say it will be not enough to even boot SymbOS. But there is some little sound within me saying: "ok, not enough but nice feeling to know it will work _somehow_ even on the good-old base system with only hardware elements produced by the original manufacturer of the machine when it was sold/bought ...". It's even true for the SD driver, as not everybody have it. I am not sure what the strategy of SymbOS for the future versions on different platforms: will 128K enough for every future versions as well, what will be about the "monolithic" and "loadable driver" versions in MSX/PCW/CPC/EP128 .... will they be always different (as like now afaik, that msx uses loadable drivers but not the cpc, I think). etc, etc.
On the whole I would assume that's because the CPC is a closed system in that the sound, graphics, fdc are the same on everyone. that's not the case with the 4000 differernt models of MSX. Its impossible to embed something that isnt standard

Offline lgb

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #320 on: 2014.November.14. 16:18:02 »
On the whole I would assume that's because the CPC is a closed system in that the sound, graphics, fdc are the same on everyone. that's not the case with the 4000 differernt models of MSX. Its impossible to embed something that isnt standard

Indeed, it can be a reason, I guess. Just I'm wondering now what about the EP128. Also what about the support of 128K only in future versions of SymbOS.

Offline Trebmint

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #321 on: 2014.November.14. 16:33:20 »
Indeed, it can be a reason, I guess. Just I'm wondering now what about the EP128. Also what about the support of 128K only in future versions of SymbOS.
Prodatron is dedicated to every version (I guess unless its a hardware specific version - for say a hires graphics card etc) to be working on base level machine that means 128k. No doubt this will only leave minimal RAM, and you will never be able to launch more than one or two small apps at the same time. However I think its safe to assume that most people will be either in emulator or if using real hardware have upgraded it substantially. Basically speaking symbos is a highly advanced modern OS that even in a basic state requires nearly a 100k. If could be smaller then Prodatron would have done so.
We have talked a while back about a symbos lite, that effectively would be symbos without GUI. That's for the future though

Offline Zozosoft

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #322 on: 2014.November.15. 11:34:47 »
Question about the ROM versions: it is just used for a storage, replace the disk loading, and then data copied to RAM.
Or some parts running from the ROM?

Offline lgb

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #323 on: 2014.November.15. 12:38:16 »
Question about the ROM versions: it is just used for a storage, replace the disk loading, and then data copied to RAM.
Or some parts running from the ROM?

At least by watching the disassembled CPC ram image, it seems, data and code is quite at the same place :( Though by having the source it would be not impossible to restructure a bit to have data / code into different segments but then maybe memory paging would be a problem that kernel uses only one segment or such ....

Offline Prodatron

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #324 on: 2014.November.15. 14:37:34 »
SymbOS allows to deactivate the desktop, so an app can work in fullscreen mode. In this case it's platform specific. An application has to detect if it supports the specific platform and then manage the video output by itself. This is done in the SymShell CLI, if you switch to fullscreen mode (which is currently not working on the EP) as well as in the screen saver. These slideshows would be possible in this mode :)

Handling drivers: LGB is right. Dynamic loadable drivers require more overhead and memory. For the CPC and PCW it wasn't necessary at all, for the MSX it was only necessary for the mass storage devices (things like mouse and RTC are standard here). Because of the additional memory and overhead I usually try to use built-in drivers, but if there are too many different devices, which should be supported, we need to handle it dynamic.

SymbOS should always run on original unmodified, unexpanded systems to prove, that it's possible :P (in case of the EP at least with 128K and EXDOS card). This is even planned for the future. But as it's growing and growing, new versions will come with optional modules, which are loaded after booting the core part and handled like applications, but these modules still expand the functionality of the system. So you will still have additional new features in the future, but if you like to try it on an unexpanded system you just load the base version.
For the EP there will probably be two versions in the future: The actual "normal" one and the "power-user" one with higher resolutions, which won't run on 128K anymore.

The "Rom-version" of SymbOS CPC is only used for booting, that means instead of loading from disc it decompressed the data from rom. Running directly from rom would require a lot of changes (no self-modifying code anymore, task switching need to take care about the rom config, too). A rom version would have different code compared to the normal version, which will introduce a lot of more work. As it's not a problem to expand the ram instead of the rom, I don't see a reason for having a rom version.

Online Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #325 on: 2014.November.15. 22:42:45 »
Quote
These slideshows would be possible in this mode :)

I think, that will be done ... :)

Anyway ... in this way, every platform specific program, game, demo can be possible on the top SymbOS ?

I ask memory from SymbOS, use SymbOS's background storage handling functions, but then I can disable SymbOS and run a fullscreen demo using every bit of the hardware, just like in the case of the EXOS ?

Or is this about the video only, and SymbOS will run in the background and I cannot use every bit of power of the machine ?
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Offline Prodatron

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #326 on: 2014.November.16. 12:32:13 »
It's still a Z80, there is no protected mode :P
That means you can use SymbOS for reserving memory and loading data and then patch the IRQ handler at #38 and completely control the machine by yourself.

Offline lgb

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #327 on: 2014.November.16. 13:37:48 »
It's still a Z80, there is no protected mode :P
That means you can use SymbOS for reserving memory and loading data and then patch the IRQ handler at #38 and completely control the machine by yourself.

:) Nice, only then a SymbOS function would be useful to re-initialize the Nick LPT, as if you "take over the control" and you install a custom LPT it would be nice to restore it, however since Nick registers are read-only you have no chance to save the address of the Nick LPT etc.

Online Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #328 on: 2014.November.16. 13:44:30 »
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Nice, only then a SymbOS function would be useful to re-initialize the Nick LPT,

With a memory extended machine we would restore the EXOS interrupts in SymbOS fullscreen mode ... and there would be quick switch between EXOS and SymbOS ... wouldn't be ? :)

It would be an EXOS application for SymbOS ...
« Last Edit: 2014.November.16. 13:59:43 by Z80System »
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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #329 on: 2014.November.16. 14:01:45 »
Of course, EXOS cannot se SymbOS's volumes because of the unknown filesystem, but somebody could keep EXOS volumes in the drives or on the devices, too.
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