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Author Topic: SymbOS (Read 177550 times)

Offline lgb

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #225 on: 2014.November.10. 22:47:41 »
Is that scrolled virtual desktop feature a common one, or MSX specific only ?

(Maybe EP could do that vertically (scrolling) with multi desktop (amiga like dragging of screens/desktops) simultaneously ... :)

I am far from being an MSX expert, but as youtube descriptions says, it's with GFX9000: http://www.msx.org/wiki/GFX9000

EP can do scroll horizontally too with a custom LPT and adjusting LD pointers. However the screen is imho 16 colour with quite good resolution, it's not possible on EP, and maybe this good one on MSX is the result of the GFX9000 cartridge as well.

Or some MSX expert should tell the truth anyway :)

Offline Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #226 on: 2014.November.10. 22:57:54 »
Quote
I am far from being an MSX expert, but as youtube descriptions says, it's with GFX9000: http://www.msx.org/wiki/GFX9000

Of course, I looked only and not saw ... :)



But ... we talking about SymbOS like it supports CPC,MSX and soon EP ... but in MSX it supports such subversions of that hardware, like that cartridge ... and more versions of CPC ... and so ... this SymbOS thing is quite advanced I feel ... so I want to say ... It is even bigger than I thought it is ...
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Offline Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #227 on: 2014.November.10. 23:05:26 »
Quote
First MSX (Philips 8280) is running on 7 Mhz (Z80) Using Sunrise IDE and MP3 decoder

It seems a 7Mz Z80 is enough to decode MP3 ?

How I remember 100MHz PCs could play MP3 widespread ...
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Offline lgb

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #228 on: 2014.November.10. 23:09:19 »
But ... we talking about SymbOS like it supports CPC,MSX and soon EP ... but in MSX it supports such subversions of that hardware, like that cartridge ... and more versions of CPC ... and so ... this SymbOS thing is quite advanced I feel ... so I want to say ... It is even bigger than I thought it is ...

Well, at least now there is some reason to have: turbo EP (done), big-memory EP (done), external video cartridge thingy like GFX9000 (not done yet). Before, everybody told, that it's useless to create a more powerful Nick, or anything like that, but if SymbOS can use it, maybe there is some value of those projects anyway. And btw, for high resoluton 16 colour mode, it is still possible to utilize somehow the EXTCOL inputs of EP with some additional hardware which would allow even "mix" traditional Nick graphics and "new style" graphics by the "old" hardware.

About the MP3: it's not so easy to decode by software, so I doubt Z80 can do it :) On PCs, something like 40MHz 486 systems could play 32kbs mono MP3s and such (or Amiga 1200 with CPU accelerator cards with clocs about 30MHz). For more sane audio quality it was better to think about the Pentium class CPUs already. MP3 decoding is quite FPU heavy stuff. I don't know if some specialized "integer only" solutions (like the "libmad" on Linux which mplayer could use as well - I was an mplayer developer but it was a long time ago ...) would help, but even if it does, it's for sure too much for a Z80 even at higher clock speeds. But as I've linked some URLs above, there are nice (even not so expensive) single chip decoders, it's a more realistic way to play MP3s on 8 bit micros anyway. And again the youtube title of the video also tells about the Mp3 decoder which is meant (I think) as a hardware decoder, not software ...

Offline Zozosoft

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #229 on: 2014.November.10. 23:12:16 »
And again the youtube title of the video also tells about the Mp3 decoder which is meant (I think) as a hardware decoder, not software ...
I also think. And want to see the details! Enterprise have a stereo sound input at the expansion bus... :-)

Offline lgb

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #230 on: 2014.November.10. 23:19:27 »
I also think. And want to see the details! Enterprise have a stereo sound input at the expansion bus... :-)

Google is our friend, a simple search and: http://www.pa4den.nl/MP3opMSX.html
Btw, it's funny that it seems some IC like what I've already written about some posts ago, it's not even too expensive, but needs SPI (well that once is something about I2C, bit confusing) bus it seems (like the SD card btw, and also that mentioned wifi module ... we would need a generic SPI interface not just for SD ...)
« Last Edit: 2014.November.10. 23:25:38 by lgb »

Offline Prodatron

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #231 on: 2014.November.11. 00:10:01 »
Of course the Z80 doesn't do any decoding. But it has to do all the transfer by itself: Reading all data from the mass storage and sending every byte to the MP3 decoder. This is already something for a good old 4Mhz 8bit CPU :P
Btw, what is the transfer speed of the currently produced SD card interface for the EP? On the CPC we have a maximum of 162KBytes/s for the IDE interface. It could be increased to 200KB/s, which is the maximum for the CPC. But on the EP (with standard Z80) outside the videoram it could be even faster?

Offline Zozosoft

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #232 on: 2014.November.11. 00:16:24 »
SD interface have a memory mapped I/O, and have a fast read mode when the bytes of the sector can be copied with LDIR.

Offline Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #233 on: 2014.November.11. 00:26:29 »

Quote
But it has to do all the transfer by itself: Reading all data from the mass storage and sending every byte to the MP3 decoder.

Okay, and what about the encoded sound stream ? Does the extra hardware push that to an additional DAC, or Z80 mixes/plays that to some MSX/CPC DAC ?

EP has 2 channel (left,right) 6 bit DAC ...
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Offline Prodatron

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #234 on: 2014.November.11. 00:30:01 »
Okay, and what about the encoded sound stream ? Does the extra hardware push that to an additional DAC, or Z80 mixes/plays that to some MSX/CPC DAC ?

EP has 2 channel (left,right) 6 bit DAC ...
This is probably up to a potential hardware producer, if he provides an external additional jack (like for the MSX) or leads the sound signal into the EP, if this is possible.

Offline Prodatron

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #235 on: 2014.November.11. 00:32:02 »
SD interface have a memory mapped I/O, and have a fast read mode when the bytes of the sector can be copied with LDIR.
That's cool. Using LDI:LDI:LDI:... "raw" data transfer rates of >200KB/s should be possible :)

Offline Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #236 on: 2014.November.11. 00:42:14 »
@Prodatron, What is the trigger when or why you begin to support a produced hardware extension for a supported hardware platform ?

Or do you (SymbOS) offer HAL or driver interfaces to implement SymbOS drivers for the different hardware extensions ?

And how do these hardware drivers become a part of SymbOS ? Do the driver writers give you versions and you integrate those in the SymbOS distributions ?
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Offline Prodatron

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #237 on: 2014.November.11. 00:52:53 »
@Prodatron, What is the trigger when or why you begin to support a produced hardware extension for a supported hardware platform ?

Or do you (SymbOS) offer HAL or driver interfaces to implement SymbOS drivers for the different hardware extensions ?

And how do these hardware drivers become a part of SymbOS ? Do the driver writers give you versions and you integrate those in the SymbOS distributions ?
For the "mass storage device" drivers (this is everything which can read/write 512byte sectors like floppy discs, hard discs, sd cards or USB storage devices), we have a flexible driver system for the MSX version but currently not for the CPC/PCW/EP version, as hardcoded drivers do usually save some memory. I have no idea if it makes sense to switch to a flexible mass storage driver system for the EP, too, as it requires a little bit more memory and makes booting more complicated.
For all other stuff you can implement your own drivers for additional hardware on application level.

Offline Trebmint

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #238 on: 2014.November.11. 01:04:58 »
Prodatron is too modest to say so, but he buys pretty much all the cool hardware and supports it in Symbos. If an Enterprising Enterprise user created an MP3 hardware decoder or Ethernet, prodatron would soon have a driver so it could be used.

Offline Z80System

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Re: SymbOS
« Reply #239 on: 2014.November.11. 01:06:09 »
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For all other stuff you can implement your own drivers for additional hardware on application level.

Probably I do not understand what "application level" means here ... when somebody makes an audio/video/keyboard/mouse/such hardware extension for a supported platform ...

Probably SymbOS will support that ... and probably the OS has to support that itself (or through drivers), making possible for all of the applications to use the new hardware ...

Like (for example) in the case of that MSX cartridge video hardware ... probably that is used by SymbOS itself, and not used by application level ... isn't it ?
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