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Author Topic: Dave music capabilities (Read 3597 times)

Offline ssr86

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #15 on: 2016.December.02. 21:02:19 »
yes we must use dave as dave.
You two are too purist ;P :D
Quote
but I think, for music, dave special capabilities is not good. I my demos I tried them... I have many musics in my demos and games where I used the filters, ring modulations etc. I have many basic (exos) tests... Ah... I hope somebody else will make something new and good. :)
But you haven't used the distortion for pokey-like bass, I think.

Some questions:
* do you think that ringmod and filter channel frequency should be based on a lookup for each note or rather something like an arpeggio table but with pitch shifts from the base channel note?
* would pitch-shifts table be enough for doing vibratos or should there be some additional table etc? (I though about doing only the pitch-shift table but with additional 3 parameters to create a vibrato effect in it - vibrato depth and rate)


Does anyone have an idea how the sound like in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIjVKXrvEIs at around 1:13 is made (I don't mean the pulse waveform)? Is it a slide with an arpeggio (+-octave?) or is it something unique to the sid?


Some additional observation about dave:
having independant stereo makes it possible to do some pan+delay based reverb/echo I think.
Anyone knows some tunes for the SamCoupe - it had a phillips sound chip saa1099 that had 6 square channels with independant stereo. I wonder how that was utilised...
I've found this: http://saa1099tracker.borik.net/ but there aren't many demo tunes...
« Last Edit: 2016.December.02. 21:07:23 by ssr86 »

Offline geco

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #16 on: 2016.December.02. 22:15:05 »
How do you emulate the ay envelope sound?
Channel frequency code = 0 and change volume in the 1kHz interrupts?
Frequency is twice-1 of  AY frequency, and envelope is emulated in 1 KHz (for best result)

Offline ergoGnomik

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #17 on: 2016.December.03. 08:39:33 »
It can be considered as purism (and on the emotional level it probably is), but in the background it boils down to resource management. You see, when you emulate features of other systems, you throw processor cycles at making the EP do something that is not natural for her (or is EP a he?). The result may even be quite good, but it will be seldom really good and most likely never anything close to as good as the original. And you wasted a lot of resources for the botched results.

Let's try to see an exaggerated example on the Plus/4. You have to get YAPE and Robocop+SID. Run the emulator and load the intro (press F8, then navigate to and select the file in the open dialog). Set up sound (Settings/Sound settings...) first like this:
16751-0
Run the intro (type "RUN" and press Enter or press Shift+F3) and listen to the sound for a while. This is the natural SID sound implemented in the ReSID emulation library. Now change the sound configuration like this:
16753-1
This is a SID emulation running natively on the machine, making the processor and TED jumping through hoops. Be prepared that the volume will be very different than before. You have to play with the volume control to find a level that won't make you deaf in one mode while still enables properly hearing the music in the other. Toggle between the two settings a few times, and you'll see how futile actually this kind of emulation is. And, actually, this is one of the better wave converters there. The thing that isn't standing out at first glance is the monumental waste of processor time (my uneducated guess is over 80%). This kind of thing leaves very-very few cycles that you could use to do other things besides playing the "music". Or you could lower the CPU consumption, but the sound quality will be even more horrendous.

The result of emulation usually is that you have to make some kind of sacrifice in other important areas just to "make room" for the thing you want to emulate. Which I don't think always worth the price.

Offline ssr86

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #18 on: 2016.December.03. 17:24:04 »
Well, as I've said earlier - I'm merely looking to try every possibility. You won't be using the more cpu-intensive techniques for an ingame tune but you still could utilise them for a demo or title screen. Maybe most will not be willing to use them but I still want to include the option.
The timer-based pulse modulated waveform sounds like a native sound as it's not sample based and doesn't use that much cpu at lower frequencies (bass). The Pokey sound isn't emulation but same polynomial counter distortion capabilities. The ay-emulation is currently most if not all you hear on the ep, so I think it would be "natural" to include the buzzer sound if it's possible.

Also I took a top to bottom approach (maybe it was a mistake) so I don't think much about the native implementation for now...

Anyway, it looks like Dave can do pulse modulated waveform using ring modulation that sweeps in a triangular shape with a small +-detune. However uses two channels instead of one. Well it was expected after looking at what this really does :oops: (xor of two swaure waves). Don't know how much memory it would take (lookup tables) or maybe it would be just a real number addition/substraction...
So we have a good sounding lead synth instrument but I don't like that there's only one free instrument left after this...

Offline ssr86

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #19 on: 2016.December.03. 18:41:27 »
Some low-quality sample of the ring-modulation based pwm (dem1.mp3) and the timer-based (dem2.mp3).

The first uses vibrato, tremolo/panning and adsr envelope.
The latter doesn't use these because of a bug I've introduced some time ago... ;P

Offline ssr86

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #20 on: 2016.December.03. 18:48:37 »
And here are the distortion based instruments (bass I guess...).

Sorry for the wuality but I don't have a good way of recording sound....

Offline ssr86

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #21 on: 2016.December.03. 19:48:00 »
distortion + high pass filter with small +-1key detune

...and pure with filter +-7keys detune (later filter+rm)
« Last Edit: 2016.December.03. 19:53:13 by ssr86 »

Offline endi

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #22 on: 2016.December.04. 12:28:49 »
no bad, but I want to hear them in emulator.
I hope you can make new sound types.
I will collect my musics from my demos to show you what I have done 20-25 years ago :)
Vigyázat! Szektás vagyok! :)

Offline endi

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #23 on: 2016.December.04. 12:46:30 »
so, these links will start youtube videos at time positions:

ork megademo 1:
bad music and bad sound: https://youtu.be/5Eg14WLJmEk?t=13
nod bad music and I think good sound: https://youtu.be/5Eg14WLJmEk?t=303
bad music and bad but interesting sound: https://youtu.be/5Eg14WLJmEk?t=1081
same: https://youtu.be/5Eg14WLJmEk?t=1326
same: https://youtu.be/5Eg14WLJmEk?t=1410
same: https://youtu.be/5Eg14WLJmEk?t=1864
I think this music is not bad, and the sound too: https://youtu.be/5Eg14WLJmEk?t=2031

ork megademo2:
I am not sure this uses spec dave things: https://youtu.be/oH5QXKoWRTg?t=669
some good bass things: https://youtu.be/oH5QXKoWRTg?t=1344
same: https://youtu.be/oH5QXKoWRTg?t=1595

so, my musics mostly bad, and the special dave thinks is mostly unusable for music... but I hope somebody will make better. with good music, the special dave capabilities can be more useable.
Vigyázat! Szektás vagyok! :)

Offline ssr86

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #24 on: 2016.December.04. 14:23:18 »
I've missed your usage of distortion based bass instruments :oops:

Anyway, as for the high pass filter, I've attached a mp3 that shows what POKEY-guys achieve with it. The instrument is called c64 synth with/without portamento. I don't see any other "tricks" used for the instrument, so should be possible also with Dave.

Offline endi

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #25 on: 2016.December.04. 15:07:01 »
I've missed your usage of distortion based bass instruments :oops:

Anyway, as for the high pass filter, I've attached a mp3 that shows what POKEY-guys achieve with it. The instrument is called c64 synth with/without portamento. I don't see any other "tricks" used for the instrument, so should be possible also with Dave.

yes this is good. maybe it is possible with dave

another, modern attempts by my, basic/exos sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbPJps_PBco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB1i_zMLrL0

and many in the sound/basic topics
Vigyázat! Szektás vagyok! :)

Offline ssr86

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #26 on: 2016.December.04. 15:35:22 »
Could you share the recipe for the jumprise bass?
Ithink I hear panning, maybe filter...

I've played both games a little but I've never focused on the sound.

Offline endi

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #27 on: 2016.December.04. 15:58:00 »
Could you share the recipe for the jumprise bass?
Ithink I hear panning, maybe filter...

I've played both games a little but I've never focused on the sound.

you can find it on ep128.hu, games: basic programcsokor.
I have no recipe, just experimentation.
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Offline endi

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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #28 on: 2016.December.04. 16:00:59 »
An interesting demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS87AO5jKjA
This was one of the first EP demo! I think it dont use any speciality of dave, so it is simple square waves with good envelopes. And with good music! so the music matters on the sound too.
This demo is good as the best specy128 musics.
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Re: Dave music capabilities
« Reply #29 on: 2016.December.04. 16:17:34 »
It is use EXOS SOUND device. I very like the stereo effect especially in the Beatles music.