Enterprise Forever
:UK => Hardware => Interface => Topic started by: Zozosoft on 2014.January.30. 21:16:54
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Gflorez asked it, but probably will be useful for other Enterprise users then I will write details are generally, started from the begining.
The 8 bit EPROM, EEPROM, Flash ROM and SRAM IC series have a very similar pinout.
EPROMs can be programmed only by EPROM programmer, for the erase need a UV lamp. For the programing using 25V/21V/12V power line.
EEPROMs the next generation, these can be erased electronicaly then the programmer enought not need a UV lamp. But also need a 12V power line, for the programming, and the write algorythm near to the EPROMs algorythm. These are obsolete devices, can be used as ROM in Enterprise system, but not have any advantage than the EPROMs. (Onlay at the erase not need a UV lamp.)
Flash ROMs are more interesting devices! These are designed for the easy in-system programing, using only single +5V power line, and the programming algorythm are easy memory accesses. Alse easy to use in Enterprise! :-D
SRAMs are started with EPROMs, this is the reason for the very similar pinouts. These are fast memory ICs, and more easy using than the DRAMs, but always very expensive devices. But todays "enought for Enterprise" size are at reasonable price!
All ICs have have a 3 generations: 24/28/32 pins package.
The main evolution proccess are: 2x size need 1 more address line. If no unused pin which can be used then special signals removed or mixed for less pins, when not enought pins then use longer package with more pins. in this situation the olds pins at same physical position (pin numbering changed), only the VCC (+5V) pin moved to the new last pin.
Some general rules about the IC numbering: nn (x) (m)mm
nn: chip family, 27 are the EPROMs, 28 EEPROMs, 29,39,49 Flash ROMs. SRAMs are very vary, 61/62 the most common, but exist 22/24/55/76/etc...
x: sub family, only important at the EPROMs, older types not have this character, later types are C which means CMOS. These are faster and use less power.
mmm: capacity in Kbits, for example 256 means 256 Kbits=32 Kbytes, from 1 Mbits these shortened, 010 menas 1024 Kbits=128 Kbytes. At the EPROMs exist some diferent series where 1000,2000,etc used, means 1,2,... Mbits, these are different pinout than the 010,020,etc series.
Will be continued with the pinouts... :)
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Not for just "protecting the poor EEPROMs", but modern ones does not need extra voltage (like +12V) at all, and no need for complex write cycles either, in fact they are easier to write than flash, and a single byte can be modified as well (flash needs block level operation), unlike on flash. Modern EEPROM devices in fact still requires stuffs Zozo wrote about, but it's done/generated automatically by the IC itself. The write is the same as with a RAM, no difference at all (it's quite different with flash)! Ok, maybe one: you can't write EEPROMs rapidly, you "should" wait after a write operation, because it's still much slower than a read. But anyway, I guess EEPROMs are still more expensive, but they're worth for hobby purposeses anyway if you need low capacity. I am quite sure that for eg 512K or so, you should forget EEPROMs anyway :)
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No, not big capacities, only 32k, 64k or up to 128k for rapid update service of core ROMs.
Long ago Zozo installed in my EXDOS card a 128k EPROM, replacing the board ROM socket of 28 pins with a bigger of 32 pins!.
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Lon ago Zozo installed in my EXDOS card a 128k EPROM, replacing the board ROM socket of 28 pins with a bigger of 32 pins.
Yes, your card originally has 3x32K (28 pins), it can be modified up to 3x512K (32 pins), recommended 512K Flash ROM, and 2x512K SRAM. Then you got a total 1.5M RAM expansion, and 512K for ROM programs.
Details will come, but I need to work now :oops:
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So much memory is an abuse! Could be great to have a permanent RAMdisk inside of that 1M of static memory...
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What kind of EXOS PCB was?. The only one I've found with 3 sockets is the EPPlus one.
Can I modify its board to work with 32 pin EPROMs?
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What kind of EXOS PCB was?. The only one I've found with 3 sockets is the EPPlus one.
Can I modify its board to work with 32 pin EPROMs?
Are you talking about the cartridge?
The answer is: Yes and No.
Yes, it can be modified for use, but can not access full capacity because the cartridge socket has only 16 address lines (A0-A15), and only 64K address space decoded. But you can put switches for the unused address lines of the bigger chip and can switch ROM pages.
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About the pinouts, lets start where the story begin:
2708 (1Kbytes) and olders (2704, 2702) are the great-grandfather of all ROM chips what we using.
[attach=1]
These use three power lines (+5V,-5V,+12V), then can not be used in modern computer systems such as the Enterprise.
But look the pinout: Data and Address lines positions will be standard for the many next generation!
The next generation of the 24 pins EPROMs the 2716, 2732 (2K,4K):
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
These the first single power line EPROMs. Another change now the chips have separate Chip Enable and Output Enable signals, this is will be standard for the future generations.
In Enterprise systems only printers using this small capacity chips. (At ZX Spectrum and Commodore systems many hw using this type.)
Because all pins used at 2732 the next step need a longer package then 2764 (8K) are the first 28 pins EPROM.
[attach=4]
In Enterprise only used at some early EP64 machines where the IS-BASIC stored in 2x8K EPROMs.
The next series the 27128 (16K) and 27256 (32K) the usually used when the Enterprise born.
[attach=5]
[attach=6]
-motherboard have a 32K socket
-one socket cartridges have a 32K socket
-two sockets cartridges jumperable 8K/16K. Some early EP64 machines have the 2x8K configuration, later machines and all English EP128 machines got a one socket cartridges with 16K ROM chip. German EP128 machines have a mixed cartridges: two sockets type with 2x16K ROM, or one socket type with 32K ROM.
-EXDOS card have a jumperable 16K/32K socket, the standalone card with 1.0 version are 16K, built in card in the German floppy units have a version 1.3 ROM which are 32K
-third party EXDOS cards have a 32K socket, MICROTEAM type have a 3x32K socket
-the Plus cartridge from the 'a' Studio have a 2x16K and 1x32K sockets
-exist a third party cartridge with 3x32K sockets, where 2x32K are switchable
At 16K sockets the Pin 27 connected to VCC (Pin 28). Modify to 32K need to cut this and connect Pin 27 to A14 address line. This is very common modification for the two sockets cartridges. Also need to modify the address decoding on cartridge, remove the jumper and connect the A15 to the decoder IC (74ALS138) input.
The next big evolution step when the 27512 (64K) chips are arrived at the end of '80 years.
[attach=7]
We started using at the one socket type cartridges, the modification are easy: remove VCC from Pin 1 and connect to A15.
Because also 64K address space decoded for the onboard EXOS ROM I do same trick in the motherboard and started the EXOS 2.2, 2.3 evolution.
The original EXOS 2.0,2.1 only search ROM at the 10h,20h,30h,etc segments, but my updated versions search all segments. Then possible using 64K EPROMs on expansion cards, with more programs in one EPROM. The trick is same: connect Pin 1 to A15. MICROTEAM type cards now can be used with 3x64K ROMs.
There is a pinout summary from 2716 to 27512:
[attach=8]
At the '90 years arrived the 128K, 256K EPROMs, these need a more address lines, then got a 32 pins package.
[attach=9]
At the cartridge or motherboard only 64K address space decoded, but on EXDOS cards 256K decoded for sockets. Then possible to use this bigger EPROMs. Firstly need modified up to 64K socket.
Adding 27C010 are easy, because the Pin 30 not used which are the Pin 28=VCC in the socket, Connect the EPROM Pin 30 to Pin 32 then the IC have a power. And connect EPROM Pin 2 to A16.
I do this for example on Gflorez card.
27C020 need a A17 at Pin 30 then the previously VCC trick not working, need a separate VCC wire for Pin 32. And bend up the Pin 30 for don't connect with the socket Pin 28, and connect to A17. And Pin 2 to A16 as the 27C010.
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Next part the Flash ROMs:
Only the 29x256 (32K) types in a 28 pins package:
[attach=1]
These are compatible with the 27256 EPROMs just need a Write Enable signal for in-system programming. It is putted to Pin 1 the 32K socket modification similar as the 27512 (64K) modificaton: cut Pin 1 from VCC. And now connect to WE.
29x512 (64K) types can not be in 28 pins package as the 27512 types because the plus WE signal need a plus pin. Then at the Flash ROMs the 32 pin package started at 64K capacity.
[attach=2]
The plus A15 line used at Pin 3 which are the Pin 1 in the 28 pin socket. This compatible with the 27512 and later EPROMs, then do the standard modification on the pin 1 of socket.
Need to connect WE to Pin 31. Pin 30 not used then also working same VCC trick as the 27C010. This is also valid for the next 128K 29x010 chips:
[attach=3]
These need a plus A16 to Pin 2, similar as the 27C010.
At the next 256K 29x020 type same problem as the 27C020, Pin 30 used for A17 then do same as at the 27C020, just also put WE line to Pin 31.
[attach=4]
And the 512K 29x040 type also can be used, all same as the previous, just add plus A18 at the Pin 1 of Flash IC.
[attach=5]
But for use 512K full capacity need to modify the address decoding of the card. I will write details for the MICROTEAM type after some sleeping :oops:
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Modify MICROTEAM type EXDOS cards for 3x512K address decoding to the ROM sockets.
Schematic of the card. (http://gafz.enterpriseforever.com/Hardware/PCB/Picture/MICROTEAM-EXDOS-1.jpg)
IC positions. (http://gafz.enterpriseforever.com/Hardware/PCB/Picture/MICROTEAM-EXDOS-2.jpg)
Originaly 3x256K address space decoded for the ROM sockets: 10h-1Fh,20h-2Fh,30h-3Fh segments.
And 2x256k for the DRAM expansion, 40h-4Fh,50-5Fh segmens
For double the address space need to remove A21 from IC12 pin 10 then connect it to GND. Now the problem the DRAM address space also doubled, RAM segments are mirrored. For correct this remove GND from IC19 pin 2 then connect it to A21.
Then the ROM sockets decoded to: 10h-1Fh+90h-9Fh,20h-2Fh+A0-AFh,30H-3Fh+B0h-BFh. DRAMs still on 40h-4Fh,50-5Fh.
When installing 512K ICs to the ROM sockets connect A21 address line as A18 at the ICs.
One cut at the top of card:
[attach=1]
Another at the bottom:
[attach=2]
Wiring:
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
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Last part, the SRAM ICs:
The grandfather are the 6116 (2Kbytes) and compatibles, in a 24 pins package:
[attach=1]
Pinout are same with the 2716 EPROM, just Write Enable signal added at the pin 21.
These used in printers at Enterprise systems, the EP80+ printer need one for RAM expansion.
At the Enterprise brother=Videoton TVC, two 6116 used at the disk controller as DOS RAM.
Warning! Exist other 2K SRAMs, the 6117 and compatibles which are little different:
[attach=2]
Instead the chip and output enable signals, have a two chip select signal.
Few times when I'm ordered "2K SRAM" got a wrong part :-(
The next generation are the 8K 6264 and compatibles, these are in 28 pins package:
[attach=3]
The WE at the pin 27 this is will be standard for the future generations.
It is combined the previous two variations: have one output and two chip enable signal.
More interesting the next type: 32K 62256 and compatibles.
[attach=5]
CE2 replaced by A13 at Pin 26 this is same as the 27256 EPROMs. But becuse the WE signal are already at Pin 27 then the A14 went to Pin 1.
We started using this type in Enterprise at early '90 years, firstly in modified cartridges, later developed battery powered SRAM cartridges and extension boards. I added the to EXOS 2.2,2.3 the option for search RAM in cartridge. At the current version this is the default setting.
For using 32K SRAM in a 32K ROM socket need to cut the A14 from Pin 27 and VCC from Pin 1 then connect WE to Pin 27 and A14 to Pin 1.
Many years later released 16K version, which not have A14 input:
[attach=4]
64K capacity types are the first 32 pins package types:
[attach=6]
Second chip select signal come back to pin 30 which are pin 28 at the 28 pins socket. Because it is high active, can be connected to the VCC and use same trick what we talked at the 27C010: connect the IC in 30 to pin 32.
A15 at the pin 31.
128K and 256K are same just got a A16 at pin 2 then A17 to pin 1.
[attach=7]
[attach=8]
512K types are the most important to we! If the socket can be upgraded for using SRAM why not use the available biggest type? :-D
[attach=9]
CS2 replaced by A17 then the VCC trick can't used, need a separate VCC wire. A18 went to Pin 1.
Finaly compare the 512K SRAM with 512K Flash ROM: both use same signals, but slightly different pinouts. Because the address line order unimportant at the RAM, only one difference remain: WE at pin 29 on SRAM and at pin 31 on Flash ROM.
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I understand the flash roms can be burned "in situ" but, whouldn`t it interfere with the operation of EP if EXOS or ExDOS roms are over-written while been accessed?
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I`ve reading data sheets about 29X040 ROMs, and some allow to be erased and burned partially in banks. Which is the best candidate for you? Can you name the exact reference of the necessary chips?
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Para szipucsu:
Entiendo que las flash roms pueden ser programadas "in situ" pero, ¿eso no interferirá en el funcionamiento del EP si se sobre-escriben las roms de EXOS o EXDOS mientras se accede a ellas?
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He estado leyendo informes sobre las EPROM 29X040, y algunas admiten ser borradas y programadas parcialmente por zonas, ¿cual es la mejor candidata para ti? ¿Puedes nombrar las referencias exactas de los chips necesarios?
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:smt023 Thanks zozo, great write up! :smt041
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I understand the flash roms can be burned "in situ" but, wouldn`t it interfere with the operation of EP if EXOS or ExDOS roms are over-written while been accessed?
You need to be careful :-)
First the flash program loads the file into memory and during the procedure you shouldn't use EXOS and EXDOS, interrupts are disabled. The final step is the cold restart.
I use about the first 320K for the final, fix programs, and the remaining is used for the under development programs.
I`ve reading data sheets about 29X040 ROMs, and some allow to be erased and burned partially in banks. Which is the best candidate for you? Can you name the exact reference of the necessary chips?
I recommend the AMD (AM29F040) or Macronix (MX29F040) because these have uniform 64K sectors, and use 12 bit code addresses for programmig, so it is very easy to program in Enterprise, the destination segment paged in is enough. I have assembly routines for these ICs. (Only some user interface needs to be added :oops: )
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And about the SRAM. which is the better?
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Another doubt, the first burn of the EPROM has to be made on one of the SRAM sockets changing the WE pin, with the older EPROM still installed, because at first the 29X040 is empty and we haven't yet ExDOS in it, no?
Seems like a vicious circle...
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Otra duda, la primera programación de la EPROM ha de ser realizada en uno de los zócalos de las SRAM cambiando el pin WE, con la vieja EPROM aun instalada, porque al principio la 29X040 está vacía y aun no tenemos EXDOS en ella, no?
Parece un circulo vicioso...
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I think the best is that you pre-programe it ...
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And about the SRAM. which is the better?
Type not important, just we need a DIP32 package, these what I found in DIP:
Alliance Semiconductorts AS6C4008
Samsung K6X4008C, KM684000
Hitachi HM628512
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Another doubt, the first burn of the EPROM has to be made on one of the SRAM sockets changing the WE pin, with the older EPROM still installed, because at first the 29X040 is empty and we haven't yet ExDOS in it, no?
Yes this is a problem. But possible load from TAPE :-)
Better idea put your old EXDOS EPROM temporary to the cartridge.
I think the best is that you pre-programe it ...
Yes this is the most easy way :-)
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The only old EXDOS EPROM I have is of 128k, and to put it on a cartridge I need another more lesson, as that bay lacks a memory direction line(if I`ve understood you correctly).
May be inserting EXDOS as an extension by tape can do the trick... I have plenty of RAM.
How can I extract the content and do an EXDOS EXOS extension?
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The only old EXDOS EPROM I have is of 128k, and to put it on a cartridge I need another more lesson, as that bay lacks a memory direction line(if I`ve understood you correctly).
Yes. Just connect the IC Pin 2 to GND. Then the IC A16 will be 0, its means the lower half will be available, where the EXDOS in the EPROM.
And connect Pin 32 to Pin 30 for getting a +5V, as I wrote before as "VCC trick at 27C010"
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A local electronics store here in Madrid have the chips:
Each AS6C4008 costs 3,99 Euro, and the AM29F040 2,66 Euro.
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Each AS6C4008 costs 3,99 Euro, and the AM29F040 2,66 Euro.
I think they are reasonable prices.
Last time I got SRAM from tme.eu, it had similar price.
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I am able to do those welds, but the process of programming is what intimidates me.
To do the things more rapid (and probably safer...), how about if I send you the EPROM and you fill it of whatever you think necessary....?
In the meanwhile I can adapt the EXDOS card sockets.
Then, once with the EPROM returned, I'll only have to switch chips.
And that way the EP may be operative while waiting.
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Yo soy capaz de hacer esas soldaduras, pero lo que me intimida es el proceso de programación.
Para hacer las cosas mas rápidas (y probablemente mas seguras...), ¿qué tal si te envío la EPROM y tú la llenas de lo que te parezca necesario...?
Mientras tanto yo puedo ir adaptando los zócalos de la tarjeta EXDOS.
Entonces, una vez la EPROM de vuelta, solo tendré que intercambiar los chips.
Y de ese modo el EP seguirá operativo durante la espera.
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Also remember my EP is untouched inside. You put EXOS 2.31, BASIC, ESP, CYRUS and WP 2.6 on a cartridge (64k).
On the EXDOS EPROM you put EXDOS, ISDOS, LISP, FORTH, ASMON, VAR, and EPDOS.
I think it is reasonable to move all these roms from the cartridge into the new 512k EPROM, and free the cartridge bay for other projects.
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También recuerda que mi EP está sin tocar por dentro. Tú pusiste EXOS 2.31, BASIC, ESP, CYRUS y WP 2.6 en un cartucho (64k).
En la EPROM del EXDOS pusiste EXDOS, ISDOS, LISP, FORTH, ASMON, VAR, y EPDOS.
Pienso que es razonable mover todas esas roms del cartucho a la nueva EPROM de 512k, y dejar el puerto de los cartuchos para otros proyectos.
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To do the things more rapid (and probably safer...),
The fastest way the "current EPROM to the cartride" and flash the new ROM.
how about if I send you the EPROM and you fill it of whatever you think necessary....?
Yes it is possible, but I think better if you buy the IC from me, then no two shipping cost just one!
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Also remember my EP is untouched inside. You put EXOS 2.31,
Just the memory test part.
Do you not want to install latest version inside? If no then the memory test always needed in the cartride.
BASIC, ESP, CYRUS and WP 2.6 on a cartridge (64k).
On the EXDOS EPROM you put EXDOS, ISDOS, LISP, FORTH, ASMON, VAR, and EPDOS.
I think it is reasonable to move all these roms from the cartridge into the new 512k EPROM, and free the cartridge bay for other projects.
Yes others can be moved.
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If I have not opened before the EP was for not to break the membrane keyboard. But I bought a membrane just in case, so I can open it and change the internal ROM. Also I want to install a switch to the speaker.
I have not purchased yet the components, thinking you will "graciously" offer yourself. Thank you very much, we will do that. You purchase, program and send it to me. And the internal EXOS ROM too if you want. Think it must be upgradeable "in situ" too as I've not the programming machine.
I don't know how I'm going to thank you it enough....
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Si no he abierto antes el EP ha sido por no romper la membrana del teclado. Pero he comprado una membrana por si acaso, así que puedo abrirlo y cambiar la ROM interior. También quiero instalar un interruptor al altavoz.
Aun no he comprado los componentes, pensando que tú te ofrecerías "cortésmente". Muchas gracias, así lo haremos. Tú lo compras, lo grabas y me lo mandas. Y el EXOS ROM también si quieres. Piensa que también tiene que poder actualizarse "in situ", pues yo no tengo maquina de programar.
No se como voy a agradecértelo suficientemente.
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I am able to do those welds, but the process of programming is what intimidates me.
To do the things more rapid (and probably safer...), how about if I send you the EPROM and you fill it of whatever you think necessary....?
I can burn/flash the E/EPROM for you, I've a really good programmer and I live in Madrid; so it can be faster for sure ;-)
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Puedo grabarte la E/EPROM, tengo un programador bastante bueno y vivo en Madrid; así que seguro que sería lo más rápido ;-)
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I can burn/flash the E/EPROM for you, I've a really good programmer and I live in Madrid; so it can be faster for sure ;-)
Good idea! And do a Spanish Enterprise Club Day! :ds_icon_cheesygrin: Maybe the first?
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Well, okay, very friendly, and I see Zozo approves it. He has to send the required ROM images first.
This game of the bilingual comments is a grace for the friend of the unpronounceable nick... szipucsu, he likes languages.
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Bien, de acuerdo, muy amable, y veo que Zozo lo aprueba. El tiene que mandar primero las necesarias imágenes.
Este rollito de los comentarios bilingües es un favor para el amigo de nick impronunciable... szipucsu, le lustan los idiomas.
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I hope, Zozo will take the required ROM images here, to download. Perhaps, another people also want to try that.
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Okay, first we found a club for two and then we go collecting people...
Sadly this will be the first time I meet another Spanish Enterprise owner...
Está bien, primero fundamos un club de dos y luego que se nos vaya juntando la gente...
La pena es que esta va a ser la primera vez que conozca a otro propietario español de Enterprise...
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No, mine, only mine, my treassure....
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All the ROMS have been published, I think, some are Spanish versions.
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All the ROMS have been published, I think, some are Spanish versions.
Yes, but if you want I can collect my suggestions to one package.
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The trick here is to program the EP ROMs without extracting them, only estoring them easily like saving programs in a disk. Then, that ROM manager can itself be a program or a ROM, but Zozo must write it...
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Yes, of course, you Zozo know better than anybody where the original "obsolescence builtout" plan must be oriented...
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We are like a strange exoteric cult, searching the perfection for a machine dreamed thirty years ago...
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One more question: what reference for the inner Flash ROM? 64k?
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Una última pregunta, ¿que referencia tendrá la flash ROM interna? ¿64k?
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One more question: what reference for the inner Flash ROM? 64k?
Yes, it is enought, but if you use 128K (AM or MX 29F010) then can put switch to the A16 address line. For firstly write same EXOS to both 64K, and when later updating one will remain as backup if something went wrong. Dual BIOS motherboard as the modern PCs :-D
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Very convenient...
Ok, I'll buy the memories.
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This game of the bilingual comments is a grace for the friend of the unpronounceable nick... szipucsu, he likes languages.
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Este rollito de los comentarios bilingües es un favor para el amigo de nick impronunciable... szipucsu, le lustan los idiomas.
Yes, I enjoy reading your bilingual comments very much! Szipucsu is pronounced approximately: si - poo - choo. Szipucsu is an absolutely meaningless word with Hungarian ortography.
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Si, me gusta mucho leer los comentarios bilingües! Szipucsu es pronunciado aproximadamente: "sipuchu". Szipucsu es una palabra absolutamente disparatada con la ortografia ungara.
Sorry for the OFF. :D
Keep on the good work with the hardware!
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So let me know when you get the ROM to burn, we'll arrange a meeting then :-)
I already know at least...mmm...about 5 Enterprisers only here in Madrid; so you're not alone ;-)
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Avísame cuando tengas la ROM para grabar, ya organizaremos una quedada entonces :-)
Conozco al menos a otros 5 usuarios de Enterprise solo en Madrid; así que no estás solo ;-)
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I already know at least...mmm...about 5 Enterprisers only here in Madrid; so you're not alone ;-)
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Conozco al menos a otros 5 usuarios de Enterprise solo en Madrid; así que no estás solo ;-)
Do they not want to register here, in the forum? That would be great.
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¿No quieren registrar aqui en el forum? ¡Seria buenísimo!
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Here is a ROM package, the standalone ROM-s linked for one 512K file for easier programming. The HxC ROM version was put to the last 64K, so it can be easily reflashed because new versions will come :-)
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The two 512k SRAMs are in my hand, the EPROMs on a few days.
I have started to make changes in the Microteam card, I have doubled the memory space by doing the cuts and bridges Zozo suggested.
Looks like we're all going very fast, but ...
Now I'm going to change the sockets pins, but there's one thing I do not understand, and is: from where do I take the WE signal?
I have reviewed the notes, but I can't find that information ....
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Ya tengo las SRAM en la mano, en unos días las EPROM.
He empezado a hacer las modificaciones en la tarjeta Microteam, he doblado el espacio de memoria haciendo los cortes y los puentes que Zozo sugirió.
Parece que todos vamos muy rápido, pero...
Ahora voy a modificar los zócalos, pero hay una cosa que no entiendo, y es: ¿de donde hay que tomar la señal WE?
He repasado los apuntes y no encuentro esa información...
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from where do I take the WE signal?
The nearest are: wire at IC 11 pin 3:
[attach=1]
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I'm doing the last bridges to the card.
You say that the order of the addresses is not significant in the SRAM, and Iunderstand it, because it is empty at first, but what about an EPROM already programmed if you change the order of the addresses?
I say this because in the 128K EPROM you put A17 on pin 3 of the chip. and I think it should have been A15, right?
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Estoy haciendo los últimos puentes a la tarjeta.
Dices que el orden de las direcciones no es importante en la SRAM, y lo entiendo, porque está vacia en principio, pero, ¿qué pasa con una EPROM ya programada si se le cambia el orden de las direcciones?
Lo digo porque en la EPROM de 128K tú pusiste A17 en la patilla 3 del chip. y yo creo que debería haber sido A15, ¿no?
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what about an EPROM already programmed if you change the order of the addresses?
The right order is needed.
I say this because in the 128K EPROM you put A17 on pin 3 of the chip. and I think it should have been A15, right?
A17??? It needs A15. Why do you think that A17? I see the photo of your card and A15 wire coming from the Expansion bus B9 pin to EPROMs pin 1 which are the pin 3 at the longer ICs.
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Sorry, I was confused as the main connector is soldered backwards, so A1 and B1 are next to the Shugart connector!
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Perdón, Me ha confundido el conector principal, que está soldado al revés, por lo que A1 y B1, ¡están próximos al conector Shugart!
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Sorry, I was confused as the main connector is soldered backwards, so A1 and B1 are next to the Shugart connector!
??? No, the A1/B1 next to the keyboard!
All connectors at the Enterprise view frontwise on the machine A1 the left bottom, B1 left top.
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Strange result, what do you think of this?
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Extraño resultado, ¿que opinas de esto?
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EXDOS ROM isn't working now, and only half of SRAM.
DRAM works.
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SRAM,ROM are fixed or can be removable from socket?
If can be removable then what happen with only one SRAM?
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The three chips are on sockets, and whatever SRAM alone gives 256k working and 256k not working
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Los tres chips están sobre zócalos, y cualquiera de las SRAMS da 256k funcionado y 256k no.
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Surely what can be read from the EPROM are unreadable pieces.
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Seguramente lo que se puede leer de la EPROM son trozos ilegibles.
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When installing 512K ICs to the ROM sockets connect A21 address line as A18 at the ICs.
Do you do this?
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I'll keep checking, it can be some stupid negligence .....
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Seguiré comprobando, puede que sea algún descuido estúpido...
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No....... Ive connected A18 from the Expansion bay to A18 from socket.....I have to read more ....
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No........ He conectado A18 del puerto de Expansión a A18 del los zócalos, tengo que leer mas...
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Okay, I fixed it easy, now I have all the memory, but not working ExDOS. IF I put the ROM the EP checks the RAM and then goes to a black screen and freezes. Would I disconnect the extra pins to the 128k ROM?
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Vale, lo he solucionado fácilmente, pero EXDOS no funciona. Si coloco la ROM el EP hace el chequeo de Ram y después se va a una pantalla negra y se congela. Le desconecto los pins extra?
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Okay, I fixed it easy, now I have all the memory, but not working ExDOS. IF I put the ROM the EP checks the RAM and then goes to a black screen and freezes. Would I disconnect the extra pins to the 128k ROM?
I think the problem are the EXDOS ROM now mirrored and four EXDOS ROMs make a conflict. I thinking what you can do easy...
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I think the problem are the EXDOS ROM now mirrored and four EXDOS ROMs make a conflict.
No, if you use my quick test in the cartridge, it is handle the mirroring.
Another idea: for the modification do you cutted the VCC from the old sockets pin 28, and replaced with another signal?
After do this, do you recovered the WD1772 power line? Need to cut the IC 7 (original) Pin 28 to WD1772 Pin 15 line (this is at the bottom of PCB), and connect WD1772 Pin 15 to +5V.
If the EXDOS can't detect WD then it is frozen because waiting forever...
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Yes, the WD1772 is already powered, I've tested. On EPROM socket old pin 28, new 30, I've put line A17, in new 31 put WE and in new 29 put A14.
On SRAMS new 31 has A14, and in new 29 has WE.
May be I've interchanged two lines, and then the memory works the same, but I've tested and don't find the error.
Edit:Sorry not pin 27, it is 29
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For the EPROM, later Flash ROM:
New 1 to A21 (currently don't used)
New 2 to A16
New 3 (Old 1) A15
New 29 (Old 27) A14
New 30 (Old 28) A17 (currently don't used)
New 31 WE (currently don't used)
New 32 +5V
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Mistake, where I say 27 is 29. Edited.
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Tomorrow more....
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Can you make photos of the modifications?
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To make the conversion easier I used two more sockets for SRAM, above of which are welded to the plate, so the socket you adapted for the Eprom is now one level below.
Yesterday I extracted and inserted the chips about twenty times each, and one of them, when I didn't know why only worked half the SRAM, I realized I had displaced a pin the Eprom. 5vcc entering by WE...
Can I have fired the Eprom?
If so, the conversion could be correct and we only have to wait for the new Flash ROM.
Sorry for the bad quality of the pictures....
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Para hacer la conversión mas facil utilicé otros dos zocalos para las SRAM, encima de los que están soldados a la placa, por lo que el zocalo que tú adaptaste para la Eprom queda un nivel por debajo.
Ayer yo extraje e inserté los chips como unas veinte veces cada uno, cuando aun no sabía porqué solo funcionaba la mitad de la SRAM, y una de las veces me di cuenta de que había insertado la Eprom desplazada un pin hacia arriba. 5vcc entrando por WE...
¿Puedo haber quemado la Eprom?
Si así fuese, la conversión estaría correcta y solo nos quedaría esperar a tener la nueva Flash ROM.
Perdón por la mala calidad de las fotos....
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Without the EPROM:
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On the photos the EPROM inserted at wrong direction!!! Now i'm 99.999% sure it is dead :-(
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Oh no, I've killed it two times.....that's cruelty.
Don't let kids play with fire...
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It was dead before been "overkilled", it acts exactly the same: first a green screen then black....
Here we say, "dead king?, put new king", "a rey muerto rey puesto"....
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Reflexing about it, I just inserted the chip (backwards) for the photographs, I extracted it immediately after, to do more testing to the wires and weldings.
Judge sorry, don`t condemn me, I've only killed it once .....
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Pensándolo bien, justo inserté el chip (al revés) para hacer las fotografías, lo extraje inmediatamente para seguir comprobando los cables y soldaduras.
Perdóneme juez, no me condene, solo le maté una vez.....
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Argh!, be careful with that poor EXDOS card! :shock:
Hope you can fix it simply replacing the damaged ICs ;-)
==========================================
¡Argh!, ¡ten cuidado con esa pobre controladora EXDOS! :shock:
Espero que puedas repararla reemplazando los CIs estropeados ;-)
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At last the component store didn`t find the flash ROMS. I`ve ordered programed to Zozo.
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Al final Merchan(Alcobendas) me estaban dando largas con las memorias y se las he encargado programadas a Zozo.
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I`ve ordered programed
It is on the way!
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The Flash ROMs arrived just now.
I've checked one last time the changes before enter the chip in the socket....
And it works....... but the old EXOS inside the EP makes odd thing.
It's time to change it to the new version I have also received from Zozo.
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Please Zozo, next lesson:
From where of the main board I can take the required -WE signal?
And, how I select the upper or lower 64k part of the 128K flash ROM? Directly 0v / 5v to the 2 pin(A16) of the chip?
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From where of the main board I can take the required -WE signal?
From the expansion bus connector pin B2 (at the top, counting from the keyboard)
And, how I select the upper or lower 64k part of the 128K flash ROM? Directly 0v / 5v to the 2 pin(A16) of the chip?
Yes.
Or put a Pull-up resistor (10K) to pin 2 and pin 32, and wire from pin 2 and GND go to the switch. When the switch on then A16=0, when open the resistor make it to 1.
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Now I remember long ago I fixed that TAPE-IN Relay...
Sorry for the bad quality...
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Changed the 5v to pin 31 of the internal ROM socket.
I added an A15 address to the pin 3 , directly from the pin 5 of the Z80.
Then 0v to pin 2 to test.
Power on, but the screen shows only moving strips of colours...
Meanwhile I returned to insert the original ROM...
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A15 from Z80 isn`t good! Need from system bus because of the memory paging! It is on the pin B9
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Of course, Nick pagination.... newbie error...
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Fixed, but...... always there is a but.
The system starts but hangs every now and then.
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VCC disconnected from socket Pin 1 (Flash ROM pin 3)?
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Yes, pin 1 from socket now is disconnected(I bended the chip pin 3 and soldered directly to address A15 on bus expansion)
I left the leads too long. Tomorrow I`ll shorten them to test.
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The EP without the Microteam EXDOS works good.
The problem isn't with the internal Flash ROM modifications.
(E)XOS reset or (N)ormal reset gives error with the card connected, but not with (A)dvanced reset nor (C)old reset:
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The EP without the Microteam EXDOS works good.
Now the onboard Flash ROM installed succesfully?
(E)XOS reset or (N)ormal reset gives error with the card connected, but not with (A)dvanced reset nor (C)old reset:
Very interesting :oops:
Which segments marked as bad?
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Yes, the internal ROM works good, from the fist time, but I don't tested it without the EXDOS card until today....
The bad segments are: BF-B0, 9F-90, 3F-30 and 1F-10.
And if I extract the SRAMS, zero errors, but the 512k Flash ROM may have the same errors of addressing, isn't it Zozo?
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The bad segments are: BF-B0, 9F-90, 3F-30 and 1F-10.
These are the SRAMs on the EXDOS card. But this is summary 1024K not a 512K!
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You're right, what happens is that the figures run very fast and HOLD doesn't work well in that test, but the errors are in those intervals. Tomorrow I will make a more exhaustive inspection.
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Tienes razón, lo que pasa es que las cifras pasan muy rápido y HOLD no funciona muy bien en ese test, pero los errores están en esos intervalos. Mañana haré una inspección mas exhaustiva.
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Use :LRAM command, and see what is missing from the list.
Anyway if you start the testing with STOP key then will halt at when bad segment found.
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Ok, with :LRAM the only missing segment is 10. But I thing is the segment in use.
STOP test doesn't find any bad segment.
A rigorous examination with the (N)ormal test shows that the failed segments are....:
Never the same...there are no segments in that range that always fail or always been correct, they give random errors which fluctuate sometimes summing 544k and other 480k
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Ok, with :LRAM the only missing segment is 10. But I thing is the segment in use.
Yes the lowest segment are the Page Zero segment.
Do you used the LRAM after when the test found bad segments?
STOP test doesn't find any bad segment.
Do you combined with others? For example with the normal?
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Now I realize.... you meant N test + :LRAM.
Here I leave the results:
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I know I made a mistake on something but I find no fault in the modifications.
Invariably it hangs after the :LRAM test.
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OFF:
las cifras pasan muy rápido
Can't you say "rapidamente" instead of "rapido" here? Why "rápido" and not "rapidamente"?
¿No puedes decir aqui "rapidamente" en lugar de "rápido"? ¿Porque "rápido" y no "rapidamente"?
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You are right, "rápidamente"gives better informatión, but "rápido is perfectly correct, like saying in English "fast passing" intead of "fastly passing".
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Tienes razón, "rápidamente" da mas información, pero "rápido" es perfectamente correcto, tal como decir en Ingles "fast passing" en vez de "fastly passing".
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Here I leave the results:
Very interesting! :shock:
Every second segment looks to be marked bad...
My first idea: verify the A14 address line which are moved from the original position on the SRAMs (replaced by WE, and A14 go to another pin)
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I've been thinking that some signal has been left connected when I taken advantage of the card tracks to do the bridges...
I'll try what you suggest, but I think at the end I'll do everything aerial.
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He estado pensando que alguna señal se ha quedado conectada cuando he aprovechado las pistas de la placa para hacer los puentes....
Voy a probar lo que me dices, pero creo que al final voy a hacerlo todo aéreo.
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I need a socket to continue. I`ll buy it on Monday.
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I've remade all the modifications and still the EXDOS memory access acts erratically, not the 1M DRAM. Why?.
Can be another problem not related with the last manipulations?
Prior to them my Microteam card worked fine...
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What is now the current situation?
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The same, random errors accessing those three new chips, but the old dram of the card working perfect. I'm thinking seriously to send you it to fix...
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Observing the problems of Saint or Jitursan with EPROMS, can be those chips too fast for my stock EP?
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I'm thinking seriously to send you it to fix...
Ok, no problem.
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Observing the problems of Saint or Jitursan with EPROMS, can be those chips too fast for my stock EP?
No, to fast can not be a problem. And we also use same chips with many Enterprises.
I think some wrong or loose soldering somewhere. Another idea: when you killed the original EPROM probably it is damaged other logic circuits?
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It can be, but is a mystery. If I had killed something the card wouldn't work at all.
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Now I am testing your card: it absolutely seems to work!
Second strange thing: the "killed" EPROM also works! It contains what I programmed into it in 2009!
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I was expecting that. But, why my EP acts erratically only with it inserted? Can be a broken expansion port?
Yust doing the modifications, was when it begun to fail. I estressed it a lot with hundreds of extractings and insertions.
And the clock, does it react?
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The next step is send you the Ep....
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I was expecting that. But, why my EP acts erratically only with it inserted? Can be a broken expansion port?
Yust doing the modifications, was when it begun to fail. I estressed it a lot with hundreds of extractings and insertions.
Do you see any damage on the expansion port?
Anyway offten found contact errors at edge connections (not just Enterprise, also at few years PC's memory or VGA contacts).
The contacts pins looks good, shine, but don't work correctly.
I use Cillit Bang (http://www.cillitbang.co.uk/products-grime-and-lime.php) for cleaning contacts. Sprinkle some for soft wipes, thoroughly clean the pins then with dry wipes clean to dry. If the wipes are white originaly you can see how many dirt cleaned!
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No, I don't see damage and the contacts seem clean. I will do a deep cleaning as you suggest...
But..., the weakest part is on the card side, isn't it? I mean, if something can break, is not it easier that Bakelite connector?
On the other side, I made test with different positions of engagement of the connectors, and sometimes the hangs disappeared and the EP almost worked. But ignore this, I did millions of tests and now I am confused about all the stuff...
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the contacts seem clean.
As I wrote: "The contacts pins looks good, shine, but don't work correctly."
The weakest part is on the card side, isn't it?
The experiance: not the card. Especially with the good quality edge connector what your card have (it is have a two connection points for each pins).
I think it because at the card connector always same point contacting, always rubbed. But because the connection have some backlash the connection point on the PCB pin are variable.
And the connector on your card about 5 years old, on the machine about 30 years... more years more dirt :-)
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Sorry I edited my last post.
That's good news if it is just dirt, but rather I prefer to have the card in your competent observation. Use the card as you want. I'm not in a hurry.
Sometimes the card seemed to work, but then I used to play for test that Paszians Rom and it hung or did strange things.
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The error with bad Ram persisted on all my tests.
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That's good news if it is just dirt, but rather I prefer to have the card in your competent observation. Use the card as you want. I'm not in a hurry.
I will test it with many different Enterprises. Currently running with Ep128's machine at 7.12Mhz. (I sent photos about this machine to the Internal expansion topic)
Tested the RAM with Normal and Advanced Test modes, and no any problem.
Small demo running for a hours at yesterday.
Will also try the Passians :-)
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128k Flash ROM socket (for a "dual BIOS" EXOS :-D ) modification on gflorez's spare EP128:
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
[attach=6]
[attach=7]
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Good move. You have avoided using directly the edge connector pins.
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The hardest part removing the old socket. I putted old dead ceramic EPROM to the socket as heat dissipator :-) Without it the metal pins are melt the plastic part of the socket.
Firstly I removed most of soldering tin from the pins with desoldering pump. Then heated by hot air gun and pulled the EPROM which are pulled the socket.Carefully pull it until all pins are free moving.
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Good old times without SMD chips (not counting Nick and Dave...).
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Here is the picture of the Z80 and Flash ROM. I shielded the cables, as you can see.
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Thanks! Both Z80 are totally same, see the date code!
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Anyway: I already found similar faulty Z80 CPUs (http://enterpriseforever.com/hardver/hibaelharitas/?action=dlattach;attach=710;image) (later another two found). All produced in Philippines. (http://enterpriseforever.com/hardver/hibaelharitas/?action=dlattach;attach=712;image)
I'm very curious about this make the mystic problems with your upgraded MICROTEAM card?
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But keep in mind that it worked fine until I started modifying the Microteam. Only a simple coincidence?
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And still working fine alone...
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Probably some incompatibility with modern components?
The faulty ones also have a crazy bugs, for example: can read/write I/O ports, can read memory, but at write memory some bits have random values.
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It can be.
We are not so bad..., at least we know that with a modern and faster CPU it works perfectly...!
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Very-very strange but found solution for gflorez's "disk operation crashing" problem!
I tried many different CPUs, it is change the effect, for example with NEC or ST CPU frozzen before the "ENTERPRISE" screen...
With new CMOS CPU are little more stable but not perfect...
And found the problem also exist with one unmodified MICROTEAM card (no SRAM and FLASH ROM), DIR A: crashing...
Finaly I putted back the original EXOS ROM, and disk worked!
then burned EXOS 2.4 to EPROM, and also worked!
Then the problem will be the FLASH chip? Tried with AM29F040, and working!
So, something very strange incompatibility with Winbond and SST chips :eek: :| :shock:
Now I'm ordering 128K AMD or MX chips and will check it.
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I don't know why but at the end I also returned to insert the original EXOS Rom and still had the same random errors.
Is the Microteam still under warranty? :ds_icon_cheesygrin:
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Now I'm ordering 128K AMD or MX chips and will check it.
The ordered AMD chips (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160937757281) have arrived. Now testing...
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I have replaced successfully your Winwond W29C011A with an AMD AM29F010B on my old EP.
Can a Z84C0020PEC work at 4MHz as a direct replacement for the stock Z80A?
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Can a Z84C0020PEC work at 4MHz as a direct replacement for the stock Z80A?
Yes!
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The chips arrived.
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The chips arrived.
Looks good!
If my memory test will detect as CMOS Z80 then these are not fakes. The 1992 date code looks good. Chinese fakes have few years old date code.
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There aren't traces of manipulation, the pins perfectly aligned, aparently not inserted.
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Definitively the two chips are CMOS, but I still have to weld some components.
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What happens when two(or more) instances of the same Rom are found on the memory map?
Edit: it seems to work on the emulator.
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EXOS have a ROM equality check.
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Is that check original or introduced by you?
One question more: does it check also the version?
I already know a similar behaviour of EXOS when managing new drivers.
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I extract from old videocard this chip.
It can be useful for installing into cartridge (I have 1 free socket) or into EP?
I'm not very good in hardware.
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That chip is called OTP-ROM(one-time programmable), essentially the same chip as EPROM. From factory it comes empty of information, ready to burn, but as it doesn't have a transparent window to apply U-V rays to the circuits, it can't be erased.
You can't use it on EP, as it comes with incompatible code.
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Thanks.
I wanted to know if that chip can be programmable and it electrically compatible.
Now I understand.
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I'm not sure now, but I have something similar chip which is Winbond 27EE... compatible, these are electricaly eraseable EPROMs.
Will look about it when I'm at home.
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Found only that specs
http://www.radioradar.net/files/preview_images/datasheets/157258-2.png
http://www.radioradar.net/datasheet_search/A/2/7/A276308A-70_AMICTechnology.pdf.html
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The data sheet (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/941904/AMICC/A276308.html) says it is OTP.
On the other side, a 64Kb EPROM is only usable for the internal EXOS 2.4 hack or for a 1 socket cartridge, but not for a two sockets cartridge, as the total addressable memory is only 64Kb and supposedly you have 16KB already occupied by the Basic ROM.
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but I have something similar chip which is Winbond 27EE... compatible, these are electricaly eraseable EPROMs.
Found it, It is a another thing: ASD AE27E256
And I also have a AMIC A276308A, and yes it is OTP. My one empty at the first half (32K), this can be used for EP, just need Pin 1 connected to GND :-)
64Kb EPROM is only usable for the internal EXOS 2.4 hack or for a 1 socket cartridge, but not for a two sockets cartridge, as the total addressable memory is only 64Kb and supposedly you have 16KB already occupied by the Basic ROM.
For a two socket cartridge possible solutions: use only partialy the 64K EPROM.
Or hack the cartridge: connect directly the CART signal to EPROM CE (and also the required address lines), and use only one socket. Or done this for both socket, and put a switch for EPROM selection.
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Thank you for the information.
It will be useful for me at next year.